He was responding to a question from Senator Tom Clonan who referred to delays in care for children with undescended testicles needing timely intervention.
Dr Goldman said: ”I don’t know.”
He was appearing before the Oireachtas health committee with CHI executives and senior HSE officials to be quizzed on a series of damning reports on patient care.
Senator Clonan said: "That is shocking. Shocking.”
It was akin to “defacto sterilisation of children,” he said.
CHI announced earlier this week that it would not be contacting the families of these children, referred to in an unpublished report on abuse of waiting list funds as “orphans” after being placed on a long waiting list.
It said the children were later sent to other doctors to be treated and “scientific evidence” meant there was no need for open disclosure for parents of children involved.
The delegation from CHI faced strong attacks from members of the committee who said apologies did not go far enough and there was scepticism that real change will be made in improving the management and oversight of the group which oversees the three children’s hospitals.
It also emerged that CHI has voiced opposition to referring the unpublished waiting list report on misused waiting list funding to gardaí.
Sinn Féin TD David Cullinane asked who referred the report to gardaí.
Kate Killeen White, chief executive of the HSE’s Midlands Regional Health Organisation, which included the children’s hospitals, said she referred the report.
Asked about the opinion of CHI, she said CHI did not believe it met the threshold for referral to gardaí.
On questioning, she said this was stated by CHI since the gardaí were notified.
CHI chief executive Lucy Nugent, who took up the post five months ago and had earlier apologised for the failings, said she could not say if parents consented to the so called novel procedure used by surgeons in Temple St and Cappagh Hospitals for hip dysplasia surgery.
An audit published in May, which looked at 147 random hip dysplasia surgeries in children, found high numbers carried out in Temple St and Cappagh Hospital were possibly unnecessary with a low threshold used.
Committee chairman Padraig Rice asked if there was a financial motive behind the surgeries which were potentially unnecessary.
Ms Nugent said this had been ruled out.
Dr Ike Okafor, CHI clinical director said: "We found within a group of surgeons in Temple Street and Cappagh, there was a philosophy that they believed the novel system of hip dysplasia surgery would avoid later complications.”
HSE clinical officer Dr Colm Henry said that the “kind of discussions you would expect to take place to explain the pros and cons of such a surgery taking place” were not evidenced in the audit of these surgeries which was carried out by the British surgeon.
The parents of some 2,200 children who had surgeries since 2010 have been contacted but only a small number have been given appointments for review so far.
CHI clinical director Dr Ike Okafor said 72 of the children were seen for review already and around 1,800 will be called over the next six months. One child’s review lasted five and a half hours but the process is now being improved.
It will be the end of this year or early next year before an international panel of surgeons is in place to determine if the surgery was needed or not.
Labour party TD Marie Sherlock asked if more reports were due. Ms Nugent said a further report is underway into complications in children following spinal surgery.
Former CHI chief executive Eilish Hardiman, who now holds a new senior position in the management, was asked what sanctions had been taken against her for failures which happened under her watch.
Ms Hardiman said “part of accountability is being here today”.
She said she accepts there were “weaknesses” and apologies for them. Processes have been put in place to correct those weaknesses, she added.
LATEST: CHI chief apologises to children and families over practices and governance issues
Children's Health Ireland (CHI) CEO Lucy Nugent apologised this morning to children and families impacted by recent revelations about the charity.
In her opening statement this morning to the Oireachtas Committee on Health, she said: "I am sorry on behalf of the management of Children's Health Ireland and I am sorry on behalf of the entire organisation.
"I am very aware that various issues that my organisation is grappling with - and I will speak to each of those issues in due course this morning - have an enormously worrying impact on parents around the country, and whether they can place their trust in us."
Only 60 of the more than 2,200 children caught up in the controversy over potentially needless hip dysplasia surgeries have been seen for a review of their care so far, the Oireachtas Health Committee will be told today.
CHI chief Lucy Nugent will say 105 appointments have been offered, and will acknowledge the “worry it has caused to many parents”.
A random audit of 147 children who had hip dysplasia surgeries across Temple Street, Crumlin and Cappagh hospitals was published in recent weeks.
High numbers in Temple Street and Cappagh were found to have possibly not needed the surgery because the threshold for intervention was lower than international standards.
About 2,200 families whose children had the surgery since 2010 were written to and told they would be offered a medical review. The vast majority are waiting for an appointment.
Ms Nugent said the random audit by a British surgeon “regrettably identified one case from the review sample where a child experienced complications due to the surgical approach recommended to them”.
“This family has been contacted and supported through an open disclosure process,” she added.
“Multi-disciplinary team review clinics have started. This is a once-off review to assess complications only and determine the current clinical state of each patient.
“After this, patients enter the recommended normal follow-up process.”
Ms Nugent will say CHI is arranging these clinics as quickly as possible and hopes to have seen all children within six months.
Along with her predecessor Eilish Hardiman, Ms Nugent will be questioned about a series of scandals, including the use of experimental springs during spinal surgery on three children.
Referring to the hip dysplasia review, Ms Nugent said: “I would like to give my assurance to all of the families affected that they will be directly supported and are being contacted with follow-up information and the next steps.”
Figures provided by the hospital will also show that as of June 4 there were 48 patients waiting over four months on CHI’s active waiting list.
This is despite a pledge by Simon Harris, when health minister, that no child would face such a delay.
The report says this is a decrease since the beginning of this year.
Eilish O'Regan
Our live coverage of the health committee meeting has now ended. Catch up on any previous updates below:
Taoiseach says what happened at CHI is 'very, very worrying'
Taoiseach Micheál Martin has said there remains a "huge task to restore confidence in CHI" ahead of the transition to the new children's hospital.
Speaking to RTÉ's News at One, he said Health Minister Jennifer Carroll MacNeill has been supported in "strengthening the governance around CHI".
"New members are now going on the board, the HSE is taking a supportive role also in the overall governance," he said.
"It will be a huge move to the new hospital and there's a huge task to restore confidence in CHI as we move to the new hospital and that transition work has been underway for some time.
"What has happened is absolutely unacceptable and very, very worrying and the Oireachtas committee today is correct, when you insert springs, for example, into a child or medical devices that didn't have any quality approval from approved quality procedures, that's extremely serious. The dysplasia issue is extremely serious.
"The other authorities, you know, the Medical Council, really have to take on board what has happened here."
Maeve McTaggart
CHI has intervened and said the unpublished report on abuse of public money for waiting lists in Crumlin Hospital does not meet the threshold for referral to gardaí.
The revelation was made to the committee after questioning by Sinn Féin TD David Cullinane
He asked if the report had been referred to gardaí.
Kate Killeen White, chief executive of the HSE Dublin and Midlands Regional Health Organisation, said she had referred it to the gardaí.
Asked what the opinion of CHI was, she said it did not believe it met the threshold.
On questioning, she said this was stated by CHI since the recent referral.
She said the first she heard of the report was on May 24 last.
Eilish O'Regan
Senator Tom Clonan said the issues raised in the unpublished report on misuse of waiting list funds was a "scandal of international dimensions".
He said that if he was aware of its contents he would not have given permission for his own son to be operated on in 2018.
He said that the “rogue consultant” narrative that you are relying upon "is only an element of the problem".
"You are the problem, and you must take collective responsibility for that," he said.
Eilish O'Regan
Ms Nugent said she could not say if parents consented to the so called novel procedure used by surgeons in Temple St and Cappagh Hospitals for hip dysplasia surgery.
Committee chairman Padraig Rice asked if there was a financial motive behind the surgeries which were potentially unnecessary.
Ms Nugent said this had been ruled out.
Dr Ike Okafor, CHI clinical director, said: "We found within a group of surgeons in Temple Street and Cappagh, there was a philosophy that they believed the novel system of hip dysplasia surgery would avoid later complications."
"Was there informed consent?" asked Mr Rice.
HSE clinical officer Dr Colm Henry said that the "kind of discussions you would expect to take place to explain the pros and cons of such a surgery taking place” were not evidenced in the audit of these surgeries which was carried out by the British surgeon.
Eilish O'Regan
CHI executives were asked by the Labour party health spokeswoman Marie Sherlock if there were any more reports live or historical which have yet to come to light.
She praised the work of many staff at the hospitals but said there had been "abject failures" in management.
Ms Nugent said the Nayagam report, which will look at a high level of complications after spinal surgery, is still underway but she was not aware of any other reports.
Ms Hardiman said there were reports which were related to normal human resources processes which related to individuals.
Eilish O'Regan
A TD had made an impassioned contribution on unnecessary hip operations for children, saying: “Justice must take its course.”
Brian Brennan, Fine Gael TD for Wicklow-Wexford, told how his family had narrowly avoided joining the list of victims.
Senator Tom Clonan, meanwhile, told Children's Health Ireland at the Dáil Health committee that they were operating "a three-ring circus".
"If you were running Tayto Park, I wouldn't let my children go there," he said.
He said his child had had spinal surgery at Temple Street, and if he had known what has since emerged he would never have given his consent.
Senator Clonan added: "Sorry doesn't cut it."
Deputy Brennan told his story: "I went to Cappagh with my young child, with a previously underlying health condition.
"We sat in front of the surgeon that is on leave, and we were told that we should seriously consider surgery. I asked for the pros and cons, like any other parent would.
"We left. We drove back to Wexford. There was hardly a word said between myself and my wife in the car. But as we drove into our house, I turned to my wife and said, 'we can't proceed'.
"My young son has gone through enough. So it's with the grace of God. I'm not sitting there," he said, gesturing behind him to where families were sitting.
"It is absolutely horrific. I'm strong. People say, do you think about it every day? I don't - what I what I do think about every day is the parents. My God, how did this happen?"
He added: "I'm of the very firm opinion that justice must take its course. In my opinion, if this plays out the way the way I think it may, this could be one of the biggest medical malpractice scandals in the history of the state.
"And with all due respect to the people that are sitting in front of us here this morning (Children's Health Ireland management), let's call this out as it is.
"The people sitting in front of me now were in the driving seat when this was going on. It was under your watch. Those are the facts."
Mr Brennan went on: "How was this allowed to happen? I don't want to turn on any surgeon, and I repeat that justice must take course. But how can a parent hand their young child over to a surgeon now?
"They're the most vulnerable people in our society, our children. You hand a child to a surgeon, and you presume, expect and demand that they get the full care they deserve.
"It is very clear that this did not happen, and this is so wrong."
Families must be part of the emerging process and fully engaged with everything going on in the future, he said.
"That is not a request. That is a demand from a parent. As I say, I'm lucky. And that child [his son] now is out there running. Thank God he's in that position.
"But every day I think of these parents. How can you honestly say this will never happen again? Because, based on what I've heard this morning, I feel that is not the case.
"Justice has to play out if somebody has done something wrong, they must stand up and be accountable."
Senan Molony
Sinn Féin Senator Nicole Ryan asked former CHI chief Eilish Hardiman, who now has another senior position in the group, about what sanctions she faced.
Ms Hardiman said “part of accountability is being here today”.
She said she accepts there were "weaknesses" and apologies for them.
Processes have been put in place to correct those weaknesses, she added.
Eilish O'Regan
Sinn Féin Senator Nicole Ryan asked the executives from CHI: "How can you change the culture when the core is rotten?"
Ms Nugent said she is willing to carry out town hall meetings with parents. She said that she currently conducts such meetings with staff.
Eilish O'Regan
Senator Tom Clonan asked doctors how many children have been infertile as a result of delays in care.
Doctors for CHI said they do not know.
Senator Clonan said this is “shocking".
"Children are being de facto sterilised for lack of intervention," he said.
Eilish O'Regan
Sinn Féin TD David Cullinane asked how many children were identified as "Crumlin orphans" in an unpublished report which suggested some children may face negative health outcomes due to delays.
Ms Nugent said there were 34.
Mr Cullinane asked if the families were notified.
"Not to my knowledge," said Ms Nugent.
Orchidopexy was mentioned in the report, which Ms Nugent clarified this was a surgery for undescended testicles.
Ms Nugent said the anonymised report made no sense. Mr Cullinane said "the patients were placed at real and known risk for cancer".
"Were the parents of the children contacted?," he asked.
"They did not meet the threshold for open disclosure," said Ms Nugent .
Mr Cullinane said: "I just find all of this absolutely, profoundly shocking, and CHI can say what you want about how this report came about, it's shocking to me... you can't look at this in isolation."
He said parents were not informed about risks in relation to oncology, urology and orthopaedics.
He also said there was a clash of opinion between the HSE and CHI about whether the report should have been referred to gardaí.
"To say that I'm concerned that the person who was in the lead position when all this was happening is also a lead in transitioning to the New Children's Hospital is absolutely ridiculous, will anger the public and certainly anger the parents," he said.
Dr Ike Okafor said 72 children had been seen in relation to hip dysplasia surgery and the full cohort of 1,800 would be seen in six months.
Eilish O'Regan
CHI to tell Dáil committee today that out of around 2,200 patients, only 60 have been seen
'Somewhat disappointing'
Committee chair Padraig Rice began proceedings saying it was "somewhat disappointing" that the CHI report was not published before the meeting.
CHI boss Ms Nugent told the committee that she is determined to restore trust and faith in the national paediatric service.
Ms Nugent said she was aware the impact of events over recent years have led to great pain being inflicted upon some of those who were in the care of CHI.
